Doctrine
Basic Doctrine:
According to God’s written word, the bible is the infallible word of God and sole authority on every subject[1]. The Church of Jesus Christ[2], the Spirit-filled people of God, is the New Testament church which Jesus Christ purchased with his own blood[3]. Repentance, baptism by immersion in water according to Acts 2:38 in the name of Jesus Christ[4], and the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (Acts 2:4) constitutes the new birth Jesus Christ spoke of in John 3:3-5. After being born again we must live a clean, holy, and dedicated life to God thereafter[5].
This is God’s plan for salvation. We must be found faithful to His word. We believe in the communion and feet washing as taught by the Lord Himself, which is not to be spiritualized[6]. The Lord is soon to come for His church, and only those born again of water and the spirit [7]will be caught up with the Lord. The end is so near that we must unite wherever possible[8], and draw as near to God as possible. Watch and pray, give to God your time, your tithes, and your offerings[9]. By all means be faithful until the end, and God will give you a crown of life.
For more, go here
And maybe here
**Below is a portion, the published/blogged portion, of my paper Unus Deus**
Pt 1 Pt 2 Pt 3 Pt 4 Pt 5 Pt 6 Pt 7 Pt 8 Pt 9 Pt 10 Pt 11 Pt 12 Genesis 1.26
Various writings,
- Tertullian on the Generation of the Son
- Stone-Campbellite Thoughts
- William Penn
- Athenagoras
- The Apology of Aristides
- From Eusebius
- Ignatius
- Theophilus
- Melito of Sardis
[1] No contradictions whatsoever exist in the inspired word of God.
[2] The only Church that existed in the Bible.
[3] Acts 20.28
[4] Even the Catholics relinquish this point – that no where in the primitive Church did Baptism in the Triune Formula take place.
[5] Living a holy life does not mean that we can say and do or wear what we want. We must always present Christ to the world in whatever is seen of us. Is our speech acceptable? Our clothing? Or actions? Do we get involved in the things of this world?
[6] If it was to be spiritualized, then why did Paul, Peter and Jude teach things to correct the physical action?
[7] Yes, that means both. John and Peter, with Paul, all confirmed that baptism is necessary.
[8] There is a blessing, the Psalmist says, in unity.
[9] Not seed money; not trying to buy blessings from God.
The Bible is the Word of God, but given to the world thru both the Judeo-Christian witness and reality. This includes both the Jewish people, Israel, and the new Israel of God the historic and Apostolic Church of God. The Scripture is thus itself a “tradition”, and as to the NT..it was given by and thru the authority of the Church. (Acts 2:42 / 2 Thes. 2:15; 3:6)
It is fact that before there was a NT text, there was an Apostolic Church, and the Church with the Apostolic authority and power, wrote the NT. Both the Apostles and their delegates! This Church still lives today, thru the Oecumenical Councils, and the biblical text and life.
irishanglican
14 May 08 at 5:58 pm
“So Philip ran up to it [him] and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading? He replied, How can I, unless someone guides me? And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him.” (Acts 8:30-31)
Only the Spirit and the Apostles doctrine/teaching (Acts 2:42) can lead us to any truth. Without Oecumenical council & creed, etc. The scripture cannot be fully understood. As with your loss sadly shows.
irishanglican
14 May 08 at 7:49 pm
I agree. The Spirit does lead us into all truth and understanding, however, that truth will not deviate from the Apostles’ doctrine.
Again, you contradict yourself by saying that the Spirit will lead us unto the truth, and yet you say that we need man’s formulated creeds.
Creeds are nothing more than man’s understanding and thoughts made after a period of development. Theology should no more be based on creeds than on songs.
Polycarp
14 May 08 at 8:05 pm
It is very interesting that perhaps one of our most profound apostolic theological scripture statements is thought to be a hymn (by many NT scholars)…that would be Phil. 2: 5-11.
I must confess it is hard for me to deal with narrow minds like yours. And I don’t say this so much ad hominem, as just from the subject and tools, or lack thereof you bring. I know your presuppositions are narrow also.
To say it once more, the Oecumenical Councils are not man-made to the Orthodox and certain Anglicans..and even some Reformed. Orthodox theology attaches the utmost significance to the role of Councils in the life of the Church. The highest outward authority, alike in doctrine and discipline, is the Oecumenical Council, attended by representatives from the whole Church.
irishanglican
14 May 08 at 10:17 pm
Yes, scholars think it a hymn, but it only became inspired when Paul (if it was a hymn that is) put it in Philippians.
You say “To say it once more, the Oecumenical Councils are not man-made to the Orthodox and certain Anglicans..and even some Reformed” acknowledging the fact that not all Anglicans hold that the Creeds are more than man-made. Can you show me from inspired scripture that Creeds are allowed? Can you show me that doctrine is allowed to be developed to the point that it is unrecognizable to a generation before?
You say, “The highest outward authority, alike in doctrine and discipline, is the Oecumenical Council, attended by representatives from the whole Church.” Is not God our highest authority and His word?
Polycarp
14 May 08 at 11:37 pm
The first four councils settled the Orthodox faith on the doctrines of the Trinity and of the two natures of the one person of Christ; the fifth supplemented the decisions of the first four. But all of this can be seen and maintained in Holy Scripture from also whence it also came.
Have you ever read the first four councils? Read them, then perhaps we can dialog..Okay?
irishanglican
15 May 08 at 3:36 am
Actually, I have studied all the councils. I have not limited myself to just studying apologetics that defend my position, but those that constantly challenge it. If you have books on those councils or other resources, I am more than happy to read them.
However, in th end, it will come back to the authority of the Councils to develop doctrine; further, it will come down to the issue of doctrinal development. Why did it take so long after the Apostles to develop the Trinitarian doctrine, and is doctrinal development on any level (since development constitutes change) allowed by Holy Writ?
Polycarp
15 May 08 at 11:33 am
Polycarp. I know that you perhaps distain Roman Catholicism? But, if you are going to at least try and understand Rome and the West, you simply must read John Henry Newman’s works on his theory of the development of Christian doctrine. And by the way, before Newman went to Rome he was an Anglican priest and theologian. So he knows the west, and something of the evangelical mind also (raised that way), etc.
irishanglican
15 May 08 at 4:30 pm
It should be said, that when the Roman Church met in 1870 for the Vatican I, Newman at first voted against the doctrine of the Papal authority. After the majority voted in favor, he in humility submitted to it.
Of course Newman was spot on the first time, but we know what history has gone since. R. Catholicism is at real crossroads on many issues at the present.
irishanglican
15 May 08 at 4:40 pm
This will be my last statement to you. I read your blog on the Holy Spirit. Very sad that you are so deceived! But most people are deceived by their own will and desire. I think that is true in your case too. You want to teach others, but don’t want to be taught at all. Again sad deception!
If you ever awake from “your” deception, you might try reading the very best book on the Person of the Holy Spirit: The Comforter, by Sergius Bulgakov.
irishanglican
16 May 08 at 1:46 am
Irishanglican, you continue to shout that I am wrong without providing any proof. That is like me telling a Trinitarian that he is wrong without showing him some sort of doctrine.
Polycarp
16 May 08 at 10:12 am
As far as “John Henry Newman’s works on his theory of the development of Christian doctrine” I will do my best to put my hands on a copy. Thanks for the suggestion.
Polycarp
16 May 08 at 10:14 am
I can see that you have never talked to any eastern, or also mid-eastern people. I taught in Jerusalem for several years. It is not just western forms there. I have not argued in that direction on purpose with you. This is a spiritual as well as mental pursuit, but mostly a “persuasion” of the heart! See the Wisdom lit. of the OT…as many portions of the Synoptic Gospels, and of course the Book of James. The heart must be willing as also the mind to receive truth! (Luke 6:43-45 ; 11:33-36) Truth comes only to the seeker, and open heart. This is of course grace at work, but not without “our” hearts being prepared!
In western forms many people think you can agrue your way into truth, but this is only true, when the heart is seeking. So far with you..I don’t see you working on or toward “my” heart, or “yours”! Mental or even theological truth, without the heart and spirit, (even true doctrine) will be dead letter!
irishanglican
16 May 08 at 3:53 pm
“Argue” sorry my poor type!
irishanglican
16 May 08 at 3:58 pm
What is your point? Your founding fathers were the ones who debated and thrashed against the Church and the historical doctrine of the Apostles.
Polycarp
19 May 08 at 11:31 am
Since you don’t listen to me, and thus even seek to understand my words and concepts (so far), you certainly will not get my points. By the way, I thought the points sent back to you about the real and Trinitarian Polycrap were unassailing! That bog is perfect for you! But, pure argument alone will never change someones mind. But the best mind that needs changing..is often our own! Here we can change by the grace and nature of God! Indeed your doctrine of God is flawed! As for me, you forget I already believe in the oneness of God, but always in the three, distinct, divine persons (hypostases)..without overlap or modality among them, but who share one divine essence or entity (ousia) - uncreated, immaterial and eternal.
irishanglican
19 May 08 at 7:40 pm
You know, I believe that you have said at least once that you would not comment again. Seems to me that that was hollow.
I have no need to listen to you because you are wrong. You do not care to explain yourself, and your concepts are not biblically based.
What comments about Polycarp? You asked if I read a letter. And?
Polycarp
19 May 08 at 7:53 pm
You are correct, I have also been somewhat frustrated, I am only human. If ya wish to quit? Just say uncle! lol The fact that you make such a statement: “I have no need to listen to you because you are wrong” is very telling! Not the most objective statement for a western debater.
As to the real Polycarp, I saw that from the blog that Duane sent me. And by the way, our brother Duane has some humility, nice eh.
irishanglican
19 May 08 at 8:13 pm
Frustrate? Oh you mean, what you accused me of being.
Seriously, quit? When will you start your defense? I have not seen anything from you of a substantial nature since you started posting. My statement was correct. I will discuss things with you, but when it comes to listening to you, following you, etc…, it ain’t going to happen.
Humility?
Polycarp
19 May 08 at 8:17 pm
I know you are frustrated with me! You want to win…no matter what! It is obvious. But I am perhaps a harder head than you, being Irish? lol I know you are never gonna understand me or my theology. It would take you sometime, even if you had an open heart. And as you say..”it ain’t gonna happen”!
But indeed humility, hard pill to shallow eh? You don’t have a clue to what I am saying huh? Sad!
irishanglican
19 May 08 at 8:52 pm
It is indeed tempting to go with you on a long Hebrew and Greek word study run, etc. Hermeneutics, etc. But, really when I read you writings I cannot get a thematic cohesion, save your deep dislike for the Trinitarian doctrine. And it would do me no good to do so, much as you might like it. When I was younger I would have already gone for it. But not now. So as I have said, I have gone in the way of the more mystical and spiritual sense. And this is not the western way really. Rome does have some place for mystical theology. And it has great value, but for the church and theology as a whole, it is need really not sought or understood. But at least some Anglicans, hopefully like myself (by grace) we have come to discover that the Eastern Orthodox have simply the depth, theology and mysticism..both Pauline and Johannine that is powerfully Apostolic and the sure deposit of Acts 2:42 down thru the ages. But again, you won’t understand this, so I will end this. But if you want to really dialog (and perhaps look up the meaning for that word..before). I am here mate.
Fr. Robert +++
irishanglican
19 May 08 at 9:44 pm
*not sought really
irishanglican
19 May 08 at 9:48 pm
Actually, I am part Irish myself. What frustrates me is that you actually think that you are debating when all you are doing is shouting that you are right. Not much of a discussion there.
Of course I deeply dislike the Trinity doctrine, as a Trinitarian should dislike my doctrine. They are opposed to each other. If your doctrine was likable, then there would be no need to change it.
What a shame that you so quickly retreat and retreat so many, many, many times.
Polycarp
19 May 08 at 11:40 pm
I have read back over what I have written you. And you have not said a word to anything I have written about the subject really. What you see as retreat, I see as the wisdom of God. As a pastor also I can see your weakness in your desire to try and teach and play Greek scholar. And I will not play, but call you to task in history and theology. Some at least, and also the wisdom of the God, from both the Old and the NT. It is really you that have not answered my scripture points and history of the Church and Creed. And you appear to have no handle on theology at all. And also your error, just happens to be one of the worst things, both a false Christology and a certain loss of God, both in theism and the grand Trinity. Very sad!
I will not argue further with your heterodoxy! I have gone way past this text - Titus 3:10-11.
irishanglican
20 May 08 at 1:20 am
PS The Apostles had no quarter with early Gnosis and Gnosticism! Those that failed to “confess” the truth about Jeus, were those who really are “deceivers and antichrists.” (1 John 4:1-3 / 2 John 7)
irishanglican
20 May 08 at 1:50 am
*JESUS
irishanglican
20 May 08 at 1:52 am
I promise this will be my last post with you! I held this until the end. But I indeed see you and your anti-trinitarian doctrine and teaching as very deceptive, and even anti-christian. In reality your error is much like the gnosis and gnostic’s of old. (1 John 4: 1-3) “False prophets” come with false doctrine! (2 Peter 2: 1…”false teachers”)
irishanglican
20 May 08 at 2:13 am
Robert, you have some serious focus issues. First, I have answered you when you have attempted to say something of substance. 99% of what you say lacks real substance. You mention the Creeds and the supposed authority of them, but fail to give any scriptural support for that view. You mention that I am wrong in my doctrine of the One God, but again, you fail to give any real support for your trinitarian view besides simply saying that I am wrong.
The blogger at Ad Gloriam Dei is a well reasoned debater and is constantly giving his reasoning. All you have done is to simply see if you can shout Modalism out of me.
Considering that Peter understood Christ to be God, I would imagine the false teachers were the coming Trinitarians.
Robert, perhaps you should write a blog instead of these pithy comments.
Polycarp
20 May 08 at 11:51 am
if this move of god in florida, is well of god all the spliting of hairs over hebrew, greek, one version to another,vrsion of the bible, will not stop god himself from defending his holy name.yes gods word is a light,but iv watched todd bentley for weeks, would you find it more acceptable if he had a nice suit on, no tatoos,studs? my brother was saved in a prison cell, the lord chooses who he wills.maybe it would be a good idea if you went to florida yourself.
margaret anne bailey
9 Jun 08 at 1:20 pm
Todd Bentley is not a vessel of God. And their is no move of God brought by Todd Bentley to Florida.
‘Splitting hairs’ as you say is quite important, since Paul told us to rightly divide the word of Truth. I can understand some of you love for this man, since he focuses not on doctrine, which was commanded by Paul many times.
As a matter of fact, those that look for signs and miracles were often derided by Christ and His Apostles. What a shame that more people would not split more hairs in determining what Truth really is.
I suggest that you do it and really search the scriptures to see if Todd Bentley stacks up to scripture.
Polycarp
9 Jun 08 at 1:24 pm
This comment is about (not to) Irishanglican.(No desire to debate with him, but I’d like to answer something he said.)
On comment 2, he wrote:
“So Philip ran up to it [him] and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading? He replied, How can I, unless someone guides me? And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him.” (Acts 8:30-31)…. Without Oecumenical council & creed, etc. The scripture cannot be fully understood. As with your loss sadly shows.”
This is the EXACT SAME argument that Jehovah’s Witnesses use to teach a person that they cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth for themselves, and bring them under the authority of the WatchTower! The Bible clearly says “You do not need anyone to teach you” (I John 2:27.) God has preserved His Word for us and His Spirit is able to illuminate the Scriptures for those of us with teachable hearts.
The eunuch from Acts 8 had NOT YET HEARD THE GOOD NEWS. He did not yet have the Spirit, thus he could not understand the things of the Spirit. (I Cor. 2:14)
However, the Eunuch was studying the scriptures, and trying to figure out who was the man “led like a sheep to the slaughter.” Because he was seeking the Truth, God sent Philip to explain the gospel. God rewards those who diligently seek Him.
After the Eunuch’s conversion, Philip did NOT advise the Eunuch to subscribe to his teaching tape ministry or submit to his personal authority. NO- the Eunuch was filled with the Spirit, who would continue to teach him all things.
Both the JW WatchTower Society and IrishAnglican are twisting this passage out of context to support their unBi blical position.
Melissa
24 Jun 08 at 11:14 am
Melissa,
The JW’s are a False Church, false prophets and teachers, but not the “Apostles doctrine” and historic Church!
But enlighten dear one with the proper exegesis of this text, if I am wrong?
Father Robert
irishanglican
24 Jun 08 at 11:45 am
Debate, is a western term and idea. But it is not the way the people of God, understand the Holy Scripture or the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Even theologians (and not every person with a theology degree, is a “church” theologian) when they dialogue, have respect for each other normally.
The OT is the foundation for proclaiming the gospel or good news of Jesus Christ. But for the most part, the NT biblical and hermeneutic is typological/typology. (1 Cor. 10:1-13, etc.). And because the Scriptures have a specific, God-given meaning (2 Pet.1:20-21), it is impossible to truly understand them apart from the Church, for the apostolic interpretation is held in the consciousness of the Church.
And as to Acts 8:36-39, from the beginning, baptism in water and faith in Christ are both essential for entrance into the NT Church. But this was also given to the covenant head of the house, and brought forth for those who were bapstised in the “household”, i.e. the faith of the covenant head of the household, and for them. (Acts 2:29..”and to YOUR children”.
Fr. Robert
irishanglican
24 Jun 08 at 1:17 pm
We would be remiss in failing to understanding that the early councils were filled with, among other things, debate. The first Nicene Council is proof positive of this. I agree that Scripture has a very specific meaning intended by the Author Himself, but that meaning does not change nor does it take centuries to formulate. I do not believe that Councils and Creeds are a part of the guidance given by the Spirit for interpretation, but instead those set above us that instruct us presently.
For our agreements, we would agree that it is impossible to see the Faith without the Church and that baptism in necessary.
Polycarp
24 Jun 08 at 3:52 pm
Polycarp,
I would agree, as we see it in Acts 15 that when the early Church came together there was “dissension” or controversy. But this was the nature of the way the Jewish men and elders brought together their issues. It was not so much as the way of the pagans and Romans, as we see with St. Paul at Mars hill. If we look closely St. Paul (Acts 17:17-33), he was not received well. See also, (2 Cor.1:8-20). The Epicureans and Stoics agrued in a manner that was more Greco-Roman, and thus pagan (See Acts 17:21). Of course Paul was well versed and educated enough to talk and argue with these men, but this alone did not make or win disciples. (See also 1 Cor. Chapter 1 & 2 - note verses 4-5).
Since then, to our modern time, the debate has become much more Greco-Roman philosophy type. With the logic of the Greeks, etc. seemingly being the way of scholasticism, etc. (This became the way for the Roman Catholic Church and education) But then came the modern era and the enlightenment, etc. And the whole racical empiricism down to Kant, etc. And later too came the modern existentialism of Sarte, Heidegger, etc. And then the worst of it with Nietzsche and finally nihilism.
When I taught in Jerusalem I saw the difference of so much of this. It was here that I came to respect greatly the Judeo way. Indeed, as our Lord said: “Salvation is from the Jews!” (St. John 4:22)
Finally, I don’t see the real difference between the Church Apostolic, with Church Councils, and the Church Apostolic that guides us with faith and to baptism. Poly, I would really like you to at least read and make comment on some parts of JND Kelly’s book: Early Christian Doctrines? He has sections on: Dynamic Monarchianism and Modalistic Monarchianism in the chapter on Third-Century Trinitarianism.
Fr. Robert
irishanglican
24 Jun 08 at 6:10 pm
I have responded over at the discussion page
Polycarp
25 Jun 08 at 7:39 am
Polycarp, I came to enjoy an informative blog, but in the comments section, I saw something disturbing and I ask both, you and irishanglican to allow me to address this quote: ["The Scripture is thus itself a “tradition”, and as to the NT..it was given by and thru the authority of the Church. (Acts 2:42 / 2 Thes. 2:15; 3:6)]End Quote.
I respectfully disagree with this as Paul states in 2Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, [therefore]“and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” This gives God full/final authority in dispensing the truth and not one iota was left up to the church. They only obeyed what was taught them and followed after the leading of the Spirit/Holy Ghost. Its called total submission, which is the tradition of allowing Christ full control. Christ is at the head, chief cornerstone, advocate, Holy Spirit. The true church knows the masters voice. We [church] follow, He leads.
Polycarp, great blog. Thanks for the visit. Allow me to return often, Lanis
lanis
4 Jul 08 at 1:04 am
Lanis,
Always feel free to post comments, etc… I have a fairly liberal comment policy so baring rude or foul language, well, most things get through.
Irishanglican will comment from time to time and he comes from the Anglican/Catholic/Orthodox viewpoint, of that of primacy of Tradition. I can understand his view, but strongly disagree with it as I too believe in the final authority of scripture. Scripture reveals Tradition, therefore, we lack the need of Councils and Creeds.
Again, I hope that you continue to visit.
Polycarp
4 Jul 08 at 1:16 am
First, happy 4th to you Americans!
Thanks Poly for the statement of balance in my position.
Lanis, as I have sought to explain, my position and belief is one that the Apostles Doctrine had to develop. This seems obvious to me. Even in the Book of Acts, we can see the Church first on Jewish ground, then slowly moving to the Gentiles as the Jewish people and Nation as a whole reject the Gospel, and thus even their own Christ,(Acts 28:25-29).
And we can really see a development in the theology and mind of St. Paul! Of course St. Paul calls it given “revelation” in Galatians, but it had to be instilled for 14 years for St. Paul (Gal.2:1), but even brought before the whole Apostolic body and confirmed (Gal.2:2).
The whole nature of doctrine is one of constant understanding and growth. See, (Eph.4:12-13). To believe is to confront Christ in a living relationship of person to Person. Christianity is simply but profoundly Christ, and this is never static. The living image of Christ, as imprinted on the soul of faith, is the vital secert of Christianity and the sole explanation of the extraordinary and miraculous success of the Church in the world, which furnishes a convincing proof of its being authentically divine.
Father Robert
irishanglican
4 Jul 08 at 12:57 pm
Curious about your mention of tithes. These are not part of the New Covenant. We are to give cheerfully and not under compulsion, proportional to God’s blessing in our lives. I believe in giving what God requires. That has usually been much more than 10%. The Rich Young Ruler was rejected because he did not give 100%! Pastors today would have said 10% and been thrilled!
John Teets
4 Jul 08 at 5:52 pm
Thanks for the well wishing for this day when we, umm, had our little squabble with the British. I hope that I can present your viewpoint, if I must, with a good balance. I was fortunate to have had a summer to work with various interns, 2 Catholic and 1 Methodist. They, along with others of Rome, helped to understand the position of Tradition better than I had before. I don’t agree with it, but I understand it.
I understand that revelation is given to a person, perhaps over a bit of time, but the truth behind the revelation never changes, thus for Paul, he was always a oneness believer, but he would discover that the one God was Jesus Christ. The slow separation of the Church from Judaism was a necessity, I believe, that had to be achieved over a period of time, but was correct from the very start.
I simply disagree with you that doctrine contains growth, but as you have requested, I have purchased your recommended book, so perhaps soon we can discuss that.
Polycarp
4 Jul 08 at 8:43 pm
[Quote] “Lanis, as I have sought to explain, my position and belief is one that the Apostles Doctrine had to develop”
I have read the complete dialog from the beginning. I can see why and how you place so much emphasis on the ‘church authority’. I’ve not studied your faith or that of any ‘religion’ of the trinity.[I am somewhat privy to most] I have however, studied scripture concerning doctrine in both prophetical and instructional designs. Your quote above gives me concern as well as before; the ‘Apostles Doctrine’ was completely developed in the teachings of Jesus. It is his doctrine and His alone as He was God manifest in the flesh [1Tim 3:16]. It was passed on to the Apostles for use in building the kingdom [church]. As it was placed in their care, it was very complete and paid for by His blood and His giving of His Spirit to guide the converts into all truth. [John 16:13] I agree the doctrine is passed on to each generation up until now, but I seem to recollect Catholicism believe the ‘keys’ were passed on to Popes…I have the keys and I’m not a Pope, I am a saint and Jesus Christ is still the ‘living’ head of the church. The doctrine I embrace is identical as that taught from the beginning, nothing else can suffice as it is the promise ‘unto the uttermost part of the earth’. [Acts 1:8]So, the doctrine was complete and final from the beginning and was not available to Constintine and the Nicene Council for recommendations. I want to stress one other point, I have no quarrel of anykind with the people of Catholicism or any trinity religion, just the concept derived at in 325 A.D. and thereafter. Gods doctrine cannot be replaced or re-evaluated by any man; we can only be followers and partakers. We can’t take on the soveriengty of God and decide for Him or change His mind, He is perfect and His wisdom is far above mine and yours.
lanis
5 Jul 08 at 7:16 am
Lanis, I would agree with a good many of your points, except for the 325 remark. The doctrine of the trinity was in development long before the Nicene Council. Seems to me that it started from the Northern Coast of Africa, say Alexandria. I would go further in saying that what happened at Nicea in 325 was a complete failure and that the Trinity was not codified until 381. (And supported by Chalcedon in 451)
But you are right, the sermon that Peter preached during the Jewish celebration of Weeks had the essential doctrine. If there was anything developed against it, then that doctrine is wrong.
Polycarp
5 Jul 08 at 9:21 am
Polycarp,
This is the book by JND Kelly: Early Christian Doctrines right? As I said, I met Kelly before he died, a great scholar and Anglican! He was Principal of St. Edmund Hall, in Oxford. If you look in the Index, you can see how much he wrote about the Trinity. Kelly’s work here, though not indepth enough perhaps, does touch on the vast sweep in pre-Nicene trinitarian to Nicaea, and touches Chalcedon. The doctrine of the Trinity was/is fully Apostolic, but its understanding and growth is certain development. But as I said, Nicaea does not expalin the totality of the mystery, but it does fence it in certain orthodoxy! If you ever have the desire for it? You might want to try and read the Russian Orthodox Sergius Bulgakov’s: The Comforter. It is on the Holy Spirit strictly, but is a wealth of information on the whole Trinity. If your going to know the the most modern, and the most indepth work on the Trinity of God, you certainly must read him! There can be no doubt, the E. Orthodox are your most profound Trinitarian advocates! (Thus “your” most profound adversaries!)
Fr. Robert
PS Lanis, I will write you shortly.
irishanglican
5 Jul 08 at 11:55 am
Quote: “The doctrine of the trinity was in development long before the Nicene Council”…this is true as it was Gnosticism in Johns day,[1John 2:18-23] The distinction John makes in 22,23 “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ..” 23 “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father..the Gnostics were already trying to separate Christ and Father in ‘head knowledge’. He is saying to deny Christ is also denying Father for they are the same. The distinguishing factor John makes is those annointed need no teaching beyond what the Spirit gives. The essentiality of recieving the Holy Ghost reiterated once again.
PS. irishangelican, one that has been enlighten in the Spirit cannot take less than what is scriptural truth. It is not that we choose a doctrine and go with it, we choose to follow Jesus Christ teachings verbatum and anything added by religions down the line is totally unacceptable. It is described in Romans 1:18-25KJV. No church entity has a monopoly on truth, it is available to you as well, but only on Christ’s terms and not ‘church authority’.
lanis
5 Jul 08 at 1:14 pm
Lanis,
I can appreciate your desire and zeal for biblical truth, but it must always be based upon “spirit and truth”, which can only be the true “knowledge.” The Gnostics in 1 and 2 John, were those that denied the real “Incarnation” of the Christ. That God became Man: “He being one Son, dual in nature, not dual in Person. Wherefore, we do confess, preaching the truth that Christ our God is perfect God and perfect Man.” (Troparion of the Resurrection)
Again, the Holy Scripture, and NT, did not just fall out of heaven, but it has a human and apostolic transmission. And our understanding of such has taken time and theological development. In reality this just cannot be denied to my mind at least. In the early Church they only knew it in its nascent form, but they knew it in its spiritual reality as well. But not yet in its full doctrinal procession. As we can see in the Creed of Chalcedonian, this creed was written amid controversy bewteen the western and eastern churches over the meaning of the Incarnation (see Christology). The western churches readily accepted the creed, but some eastern churches did not. But this is something of a theological mystery, for the miaphysite position, often known as “Monophysitism” felt that the creed should have stated that Christ be acknowledged “FROM two natures” rather that “IN two natures”. Really both are orthodox.
I fear that much of our differences in Christendom are really ignorance, rather than just defense for the truth! But both the Incarnation, and the Trinity of God are profound mystery, and we must approach such with great reverance and even proper fear of God! But as the Orthodox teach, this is a position of faith, rather than argument.
And, one cannot argue one into truth. No this is again something of “spirit and truth” done alone by God. But we can stand upon the historical faith, and seek the Apostles Doctrine, (Acts 2:42). This is still in spiritual process, and will be until Christ comes and finishes the “eschaton” (as I quoted Eph.4:12-13). I would ask you to read back over the first few of my posts here, rather than repeat myself.
Finally, it is the whole Church…’One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic’ Church body that has the truth. (Matt.16:18-19) This Church is both East and West. And Christ is both the Rock and Head, for all of those who have come to know and experience “the salvation of God in Christ.”!
Sincerely In Christ,
Father Robert
irishanglican
5 Jul 08 at 5:38 pm
I have continued this over at the discussion page
Polycarp
5 Jul 08 at 9:19 pm
My dear sir, One cannot have truth without first having the infilling of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. That is what teaches and qualifies one to ‘buy the truth and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.”[Pro. 23:23] One cannot come to God unless they enter at the ‘door’[John 10:1,7. This is that 'door' the trinity doctrine chooses to change by opening another way of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost [titles]. If that was viable, then why did Matthew enter the upper room and recieve the Holy Ghost with the rest and then was baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sin? That would make him dead wrong according to your doctrine and a ‘heretic’. The Catholic church wasn’t the first to call us ‘heretic’ it happened to Paul in Acts 24:14.
You almost got it Robert, Jesus was dual in nature, he spoke as man and as God. He thought it not robbery. But you made the common error of making a separation of Perfect God, Perfect Man, they were inseparable. 1John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” This is a direct question, answer if you will, how can you maintain in your doctrine ‘three distinct ‘persons’ when all three were Spirit in heaven? [This is speaking of our heaven record which was before the world was] The Word hadn’t become flesh yet…now can you possibly separate God? What you do see in ‘three’ is the dispensational attributes created in behalf of mankind. Father: creator, Word: supreme sacrifice/Jesus Christ/God manifest in the flesh, and Holy Ghost, our infilling to restore us to our lost dominion status. [Gen. 1:27,28] If you are to try and separate God you have seven Spirits to contend with, not just three. The dispensations were a total different matter, and not ‘persons’.
I must echo Polycarp; we simply do not recognize mans Creeds or Councils,it is futile for you to try and bring manmade doctrine into the equasion. To do so is not speaking to us with any validity whatsoever.
Please reconsider your statement on ignorance, you pointed that in the wrong direction. We both use bible scripture as foundation rightfully divided in spiritual guideance. However you are so right there is ignorance in Christianity, but it is not our doing. Have you read my blog on Isaiah 28? It will explain where your heretical doctrine was prophecied to come from.
No, I am not arguing, debating. [I will surely end before that takes place] I am expounding the truth to one that needs to see Christ as He is, One. When I am done and satisified I have accomplished my task, I will depart this conversation.
Quote: “And, one cannot argue one into truth. No this is again something of “spirit and truth” done alone by God”
[End Quote]You may have an element of truth in you afterall, but you suppress it with all the creeds and councils of men that have devised an erronous doctrine. Forget them and embrace the Word of God as infallible and you can enjoy the spiritual blessings Jesus gives to those that follow him.
Finally, you escape the usual provincial attitude, because you named the church: One [God] Holy Apostolic. And you wrongfull added Catholic. They are trinitarian, they don’t fit into Gods doctrine. I’m not being facetious, just realistic to scripture.
PS. Polycarp, sorry to interject into your thread, I’ll refrain from further post. This is your stage, not mine.
lanis
6 Jul 08 at 11:44 am
Lanis,
Thank you to seek to “expound” for me. Indeed the true Christian is one that is indwelt and lives fully by the Spirit of God. For without Him..’the Spirit’, we are “none of His”.
The Church of God does not live without its own history in this fallen world. And the salvation history that began in Gen.3:15, still continues in the now Body Life - the Mystical Body of Christ - of the continued life of the Ascended Christ above (Heb.9:24). And the continuing humanity of Christ is the pattern and guarantee of the glorified humanity which awaits us. The Spirit links us now to this future as the guarantee of what we await. So St. Paul can say, “hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit whom he has given us.” (Rom.5:5)
The sight of the Ascended Christ dawning in our hearts through the Holy Spirit transforms us for “our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ..etc.” (Phil.3:20-21)
These are promises for the People of God, and those who “know” they are Christ’s! This is always a spiritual witness and reality fully in the love of God, which nothing and no one, can take from those who know and love God in Christ! (Rom.8:38-39)
“For through HIM (Christ) both of us (Jew & Gentile) have access in (by) one Spirit unto Father.” (Eph.2:18)
Sincerely In Christ,
Father Robert
irishanglican
6 Jul 08 at 7:24 pm
PS I forgot the article “the” in Eph.2:18..’the Father’. Very important!
Fr. R.
irishanglican
7 Jul 08 at 11:20 am
Note, 2 John 3…”Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, The Son Of The Father, in truth and love.” The article shows that the persons of the Father and the Son while very close, are also separate!
Fr. R.
irishanglican
7 Jul 08 at 11:40 am
[Quote] “Note, 2 John 3…”Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, The Son Of The Father, in truth and love.” The article shows that the persons of the Father and the Son while very close, are also separate” [End Quote]
Will you agree the bible has no contradictions? [I noted your scripture seemingly separating Father/Son] Now, does the bible have contradictions?
lanis
7 Jul 08 at 6:10 pm
Lanis,
The Bible or Holy Scripture, has tons of “human” contradictions, but none in the mind or will of God Himself! We should try and press for the “mind” and will of God! As St. Paul says: “For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” (1 Cor.2:16..Isa.40:13 also comes to mind here!) But this mind we have as regenerate people of Christ, is not just logic and mental. In fact, it is not that at all, but spirit and spiritual! Thus the “mind” here is not some mere instrument of thought, but a mode of thought, or mind-set. It is a spiritual character or disposition. The Spirit who teaches what it is to know the mind of Christ is no naturalistic “spirit of the world,” nor an instrumental “power” to provide some supposed spiritual elite with status. No, this is the Spirit who anointed the Christ to die for others on the cross. Thus again, this “mind” is the work of “the Spirit”, and is defined always in terms of Christological criteria. And also, it is because Christ lives in those who have received the Spirit that their stance and outlook can be that of Christ! And all this is because of grace and glory…God’s In Christ! Finally, this Spirit is a Person of love, and the lover of both Christ and the Father! (Col.1:8/Rom.15:30/ St.John 15:26..”the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father”).
Fr. Robert
irishanglican
7 Jul 08 at 7:29 pm
[Quote] “Note, 2 John 3…”Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, The Son Of The Father, in truth and love.” The article shows that the persons of the Father and the Son while very close, are also separate” [End Quote][you miss quoted it]
If this scripture gives you separation; which it doesn’t if understood correctly which I can explain. [You place 'persons' where it should be dispensations] But lets look at another and see what it says, same writer, so there should be no contradiction or all is failure and nothing to believe in. 1John5:20 “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, ..in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
It is certain John was not fickle or daft, but astutely knowledgeable of Jesus Christ. I have read many theologians that admit they cannot explain this verse. You may not have it in your bible at all, but its in there.
To see the ‘understanding’ of your quoted scripture you need to refer to Jesus intercessory prayer;John 17. The key word is glorify. Jesus is commmitting himself back to who He was before the beginning..verse 5 “…glorify thou me with thine “own self” with the glory which “I” had with thee before the world was.” I could break down the meaning of your scripture, but it would be overkill, so,if you’re truthfully honest with yourself, you cannot possibly deny they were one and the same before any creating took place; for Is.45:5 “I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me…:” [1Cor.15:47] “The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.” Theology doesn’t teach this or rightly divide scripture to show truth. It sees 1John 5:20 and says ‘what?’ [I need to make a profound point, God reveals himself to those he uses as he did Cyrus in this same chapter. He still reveals himself [revelation] to those willing to forget head knowledge [Ro. 8:7] and accept Christ doctrine.] Again, I ask you to lay down your creeds, councils and church authority long enough to search scripture without bias. Your theology training did not contain true dividing of scripture. I was sucessful recently in showing a young theologian the truth and he saw it and loved it. You may have aged in your position and need the retirement and can’t walk away, but your soul is so much more important, God will provide. This is my last post here; if you wish to visit: http://lanis.wordpress.com
lanis
7 Jul 08 at 11:08 pm
lanis,
Thanks again for a bit of time. It is my prayer for you dear one, that you will discover the truth and beauty of God Triune! The very central tenet of the Christian faith and theology is the Trinity of God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! See, the Trangsfiguration, and St. Peter’s version: 2 Pet.1:16-21. (There is nothing of a dispensational element here at all) “For He received honor and glory from God THE Father when that voice was conveyed to Him by THE Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, MY Beloved, with whom I am well pleased.” (verse 17)
“WE worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.” Athanasian Creed
See also the “prichoresis, Gk.” The interpenetration of the three persons of the Trinity, first used by St. John Damascus. It describes the seamless Trinity of God while maintaining the personal distinctions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
God Bless,
Father Robert
PS I am very blessed financially, I don’t need the so-called retirement money. I have been called and blessed by the Triune God in many ways. And for just fun and exercise, I am now a rather new 2nd degree black belt. Not bad for a older one time Royal Marine officer, now in my late 50’s. Yes just a bit of Irish pride! lol Bye now.
irishanglican
8 Jul 08 at 12:47 am
There is no Triune God. For a blog explaining where you get that from read “Trinity? Oneness? Biblical Facts! @
http://lanis.wordpress.com
lanis
14 Jul 08 at 9:28 pm
lanis,
I am not sure if ya post was sent my way? But if so, typology is not just some workable form with God. It is in reality, the way we understand the OT itself. We can see that the NT itself uses the typological, but Christological understanding. And the triune nature of the Godhead is simply undeniable, if we will be honest with the NT Text! Like St.John chapters 14-16, not to mention St. Paul. And the best and most full history of the Christian Church is Trinitarian, over any other ideas, modalism..dynamic or modalistic monarchianism, etc.
We are not going to agree here, but I hope you will refain from any ad hominem with me! Polycarp and I don’t agree, but we try to give each other some kind of mutual respect, etc. This is always the Christ-like way!
Fr. Robert
irishanglican
14 Jul 08 at 11:32 pm
I am not a “biblical scholar”. I am a Christian. After I found true salvation I always prayed for the Holy Spirit to give me the interpretation of scripture meant for me, & was given that. My eyes were opened. I realized that the Holy Spirit was the only One to show me the real truth. I was shown that the doctrine I was strongly raised in & also the doctrine I received my salvation through (somewhat similar, yet different than what I grew up in) had “evolved” from the original church. When a person, or “council” changes, adds, or omits things from the Bible, or it is taught that certain things either no longer occur in modern day or that other things do now occur that did not then, it is not truth. So many organized religions have put limitations on God, Jesus Christ, & the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe the teachings of Christ’s Church should be changed by man. I also do not believe that one should build one’s belief strongly on selected or individual parts of the scriptures. Let the Holy Spirit lead you & teach you. That is the only way to receive the whole truth.
Marsha
17 Jul 08 at 9:26 am
Marsha, you will find a few here that would agree with you concerning evolution of doctrine.
Polycarp
17 Jul 08 at 10:16 am
I know this is a blog for: The Church of Jesus Christ. My friend Polycarp (again blog name).
So I will not nitpic here, nor bring my Church people to witness their truth and experience, etc.
I am by western and my Anglican Church standards, a man in the arena of biblical scholarship. But if you note, I do not use the term doctor before my name here, which I could (I have two), but I use the term “Father” which is the Anglo-Catholic term for priest-presbyter-pastor, etc. My point is, I argue, or seek to from positions of truth and sound logic. No we cannot escape logic & reason to some degree! And I seek to use the historical method. As even Polycarp does.
As to the term used here “evolved” and “evolution”, this can be used very broadly. (Poly, you know this!) The word is not used in theology in the sense of development. It has negative connotations with fundamental Christian’s (as yourselves) because of the aspect of Darwin, and Darwinian evolution, etc.
I will finish today, with Luther’s final statement before John Eck the Roman integrator:
“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of Scripture or by an evident reason (ratione evidente) - for I confide neither in pope nor in a church council alone (note his word alone! He does not simply negate the history of church council), since it is certain that they have often erred and contradicted themselves (he is speaking of Rome here) - I am held fast by the Scriptures adduced by me (he was a Doctor of Theology), and my conscience is taken captive by God’s Word, and I neither can nor will revoke anything, seeing that it is not safe or right to act against conscience. God help me. Amen.”
Father Robert
irishanglican
17 Jul 08 at 2:15 pm
Fr. Robert,
Luther was indeed a man of genius and passion (much like myself - humor). I believe that doctrine can be ascertained from history, not Tradition, just as from the Bible. I believe that biblical scholarship is essential to understanding deeper doctrine, and by that I mean doctrine more than the Gospel (death, burial and resurrection from to to the new life), of course that scholarship has to be done in an equal sense to prove and disprove doctrine, so that the right things can be sought out.
I do not agree with bringing in unbiblical terms (Nicene Council - West vs. East) and more than that, philosophical terms, thoughts, and reasoning, to explore and shore up our doctrine. I believe that we have to search only the Scriptures.
When I say evolution, it does carry a negative weight, but I am not sure of a better word. Progression, as I believe Fr. Robert to us, is a much more positive word, so for the time being, I have no problem using that, although I strongly disagree with doctrinal progression of any kind, or continuing revelation.
Polycarp
18 Jul 08 at 8:24 am
Polycarp,
Yes, “Progression” would be a more fair and correct term for the development of Christian doctrine. Funny but many oneness people (Pentecostal) practise a most real type of continuing revelation. In the strict sense both the High Church East and West do not allow or practise continuing revelation. But they both believe that doctrine can progress in its understanding and spiritual development( like the doctrine of Mary the Mother of God etc). To believe as Christians is not to accept dispassionately, but to live in the moving presence of Christ. And this life is real in the Mystical Body of Christ! And this Body is the One, Holy, Catholic (Universal), and Apostolic Church…alive and real, in historical time. And it has its own real and living history, both in its people and in its form therein. “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock (petra) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” (Matt.16:18) This Church is built on both the Apostolic Christological witness, and the continued doctrinal and teaching life and witness of its own Body Life and Discipleship. Simply the Church makes saints and lives redemption! But this is always in the pilgrim nature of the Church, warts and all!
By the way, listening in…I have read a bio of the life of Edward Irving (Dallimore). In fact, since me great gram (born 1882 and died when I was 16), who was both part Scot but mostly Irish (she, born R. Catholic, was a “born-again” Plymouth Brethern). She had a sister who was an among the Irvingites. Also the well known Oswald Chambers mother was of the Irvingites. The point is, this Church the Apostolic Catholic Church, was not modalist. But in his tract: The Orthodox and Catholic Doctrine of our Lord’s Human Nature, he declared Christ’s human nature to be sinful flesh, which of course is great error and heresy. Also later in their doctrine and practice they were inclined to Catholic doctrines and practices, their ‘priests’ wore vestments and used incense, etc. After the death of the last ‘Apostle’, in 1901, who had been expected to survive till the Second Coming, they gradually diminished and are now virtually extinct.
Fr. Robert
irishanglican
18 Jul 08 at 2:40 pm
Sorry if I got off blog sequence..too many blogs about lol. Least for this Irishman!
Fr.R.
irishanglican
18 Jul 08 at 2:45 pm
Polycarp,
I guess you blocked some sites I sent you about Modalism? Just thought you might find them of interest?
Fr. Robert
irishanglican
19 Jul 08 at 1:35 pm
I didn’t, Fr. Robert. I looked at them. They are on the discussion page.
Polycarp
19 Jul 08 at 2:50 pm
Poly, This looked of interest? I will not send any more on this however.
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/modalism.html
Fr.R.
irishanglican
19 Jul 08 at 5:01 pm
Fr. Robert, you can send as much as you want. I enjoy reading them. Of course, I will not be able to read into detail until Monday or so.
Polycarp
19 Jul 08 at 10:00 pm
Bullinger on the pneuma (Spirit) in the NT.
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app101.html
Fr.R.
irishanglican
20 Jul 08 at 12:30 am
Poly,
I think I go out of blog order agai sorry, but here is another Bullinger quote you might like..
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app107.html
Fr.R.
irishanglican
21 Jul 08 at 6:09 pm
Fr. Robert, not a problem. I enjoyed the app107, but it seems to me to be too close the KJVO argument that only the Author can change His Words. (Of course to them, these means that since the KJV/AV was dropped out of Heaven in 1611, it alone is the Word of God, and that the LXX never existed until Origen). I understand the issue of discrepancies, of course I contribute them to the fact that when the Greek translation was made (not that the OT was translated at one time into Greek) the translators broke the thoughts from the penned words. So, when Isaiah speaks of isles, Christ speaks of Gentiles.
Polycarp
22 Jul 08 at 8:13 am
Polycarp,
Yes I agree with you on the Textual issues. Bullinger was the head of the English Trinitarian Bible Society. Which today makes the KJV version only. I have one of their bibles, very nice leather, paper..etc. It is funny though in his Companion Bible (KJV) Bully uses the more ecletic text (in his notes) often of the RV made in 1885 I believe. As you can see perphaps the Orthodox Study Bible is the first modern Bible to use the Septuagint for the OT. I read my Greek NT often, but I don’t pretend to be the scholar Bully was. On Greek word studies he is simply great! His Companion Bible is still in print, to buy on-line. And really worth having to my mind. Not of course that I follow his dispensational ideas. But even there, he is more consistent than most modern dispensational thinkers. His view that the whole book of Acts gives a transitional view from the OT mentality to finally the full NT view, has some merit in my opinion (here perhaps a case could be made for the Jesus name baptism..if that were true, without the use of the Greek Prepositions?). But his ultra-dispensational view places the Pauline Church only in the Prison-Epistles (Letters), which is error. But at least consistent logic with his theological ideas and hermenutic. I use his two books on Greek words and his Figures of Speech often. Both great and lasting works truely!
I like and use the American ESV…English Standard Version. But like you I have almost every English NT translation known to man! lol Perhaps the NRSV is the best, save its issue with putting sister/sisters with the word brother and brethren in the NT. And I don’t like the use to drop the term Son of Man in many cases. But over all it is perhaps the best translation. And also I love the Wisdom books of the so-called apocrypha! Closer to the mind of the wisdom mind and ideas-truth of Christ (least to my mind).
Fr.R.
irishanglican
22 Jul 08 at 11:42 am
I’ll have to look into getting a copy of the Companion Bible, but I really wanted to answer your love of the Wisdom books.
I totally agree. Seriously. Since I discovered these recently added to the canon books (Wisdom, Sirach, some of Baruch) I cannot put them down. In truth, I have not studied much of Sirach or Baruch, but have discovered Wisdom (of Salomon) to be the hidden Gospel, the ‘Above’ of Luke, the constant companion to Paul in Romans, and above all, a delight upon my own understanding. I do not understand the reasoning behind separating these books and throwing them into the trash heap of history as so many Protestants are want to do.
By the way, the ESV is coming out with a Deuterocanon next year. Have you seen the New English Translation of the Septuagint? Not very liturgical but helpful nonetheless.
Polycarp
22 Jul 08 at 1:02 pm
Have you seen this? http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=587
Polycarp
22 Jul 08 at 1:07 pm
Poly, Yes the Wisdom Books are closer to the incarnate wisdom of Christ. I love and read them often. As to their being taken out of the original KJV version, we can thank the English Puritans for that. They had their way with the King, etc. Poly you have a mind fit for broader fields, I pray God keeps opening it! I am certainly a man with feet of clay myself, but I ask God to keep both my mind and spirit aloft! God bless my friend! And have not seen the New English Sept…it’s not part of the older New English Bible is it?
And I had heard of the Deuto-books with the ESV, but was not sure if it were true, but so glad to hear that. I will surely get that copy, if the Lord allows me to be around? Since my time with the Royal Marines, etc. every day is a gift of God!
Fr. R.
irishanglican
22 Jul 08 at 1:44 pm
Go here for the NETS (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/) I have a hard copy and enjoy it. Why are the Marines, no matter the nationality, always the roughest bunch of folks? I know a few ex-Marines here and no matter the age, they are still ready to pounce.
Judith, as we know, is filled with historical inaccuracies, but Tobit has visions connected to John, while the Wisdom books are generally looking towards the Incarnation. Why throw out the baby with the bath water?
Our congregation is KJV-only, but I still not have one without the Deuterocanon. It seems that every other bible is just missing something without them. (I have a Cambridge, black letter with the Apocrypha and the New Cambridge Paragraph Bible, which is still KJV and with the Apocrypha.)
Thank you for you kind comments. I know that I believe, but I want to know why I believe something, and if I find myself in error, I want to be able to correct it.
Polycarp
22 Jul 08 at 1:51 pm
Poly, First..there is no such thing as an ex-Marine, Brit or American lol. And when ya got to go to war, ya better be trained-up hard! I was also in a Recon unit, we did it all, I made over 30 parachute jumps also. And one real combat night jump. It was a great time, but we did lose some mates. The comradery of any Marine combat unit will always be profound!
Thanks for the site. We are on the same page as to seeking truth. And Cambridge still makes a good bible! What ya have is rare, with black letter and the Apocrypha. I used to have over 5,000 books, and not a few different bibles too. But when I went to Israel I sold much of it (regret that now) but God knows it was getting to be a burden too. Since then I have again aquired many back, but not the same as. I had some older and certain rare books to say the least. But we can only use it, cannot take it with us! lol
Fr.R.
irishanglican
22 Jul 08 at 2:15 pm
My wife says the same things about my books (can’t leave with them), which although they do not number in the 1000’s, I hope that they will soon. I have a small collection of rare books, such as Tholuck’s first English edition of his commentaries on the Sermon on the Mount and Romans, both great treasures and in fair condition. Of course, I got into the habit of collecting old bibles, but found that I could not use them and therefore could not justify them. I do however, keep my eyes peeled to rescue bibles that are about to be thrown away.
I posted a commentary (start - in the infant stages) on Wisdom. I hope that you can provide insights, whether we agree with the Christology impact or not.
Polycarp
22 Jul 08 at 2:38 pm
Poly,
Looking forward to reading your thoughts and study on Wisdom. I am just busy right now.
Fr.R.
irishanglican
23 Jul 08 at 1:27 pm
Polycarp,
Here is a Creedal Statement perhaps you have not seen before? http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/BelgicConfession.html
I cannot seem to find your Wisdom Blog?
Fr.R.
irishanglican
24 Jul 08 at 3:55 pm
Here is the link the Wisdom post. Again, it is just a start and I hope to add more to it shortly. Next week should be a breeze for me, so I can have more time to develop Wisdom, one of my favorite books.
Polycarp
24 Jul 08 at 4:00 pm
Okay, they had me here, for the most part.
But then they go on to talk about the Trinity. How can it be a single and simple being and yet eternally distinct? And in such a way that they needed centuries to fully develop the thought.
Polycarp
24 Jul 08 at 4:02 pm
Poly,
You are declaring what is surely one of the most profound truths of both Scripture and God’s own revelation: He is One, but also a Mystery of Tri-Hypostatic Hypostasis! And in incarnation, Divinity is “indivisbly united” with His humanity in a “hypostatic union”. Also perhaps like the Miaphysite doctrine, you would simply see that Christ has one united nature out of two: divinity and humanity? Thus ‘the one nature of God the incarnate Logos/Word’. (St. Cyril of Alexandria).
I have always maintained that the Incarnate Christ is the visible center of the triune God! “Who is the image of the invisible God” (Col.1:15).
You see in reality, the doctrine of the Trinity only is “developed” in our time. In Himself, the Holy Trinity remains a sealed book, and has “neither assimilated nor unfolded.” Here the Eastern Orthodox understanding of God’s eternal essence which is totally transcendent and His “uncreated energies” which is how He reaches us are seen. And this is much more than anthropomorphic, but God’s eternal essence, which again is totally transcendent.
Fr. R.
irishanglican
24 Jul 08 at 4:49 pm
i just recently heard the song “healer” and it has really resonated in my spirit as coming from an individual who has been or is walking in the fire of life. the word of God says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. as i read about this artist today, my heart ached for him and i truly believe he wrote from his heart and God’s spirit led him to confess his sins and seek forgiveness and healing. as a part of the family of God, i will keep him in my prayers and pray that God cover him with love and impart healing to his wounded, broken heart and life.
marylou vandeventer
24 Aug 08 at 5:39 pm
If the New Testament has not bee tampered with by the Catholics, then why does Hebrews chapter 8 have an opposite quotation in part of it from Jermiah chapter 31. Jer says “though I was a husband to them` The 8th chapter of Hebrews says that He rejected them`. It is best to read to the end of Jer 31 to see what Yahweh was saying and that the people who translated the Hebrew text of the book of Hebrews into Greek changed it. Truth seeker, Not scared to dig..Shalom
Israel
27 Aug 08 at 5:22 pm
Danke für die Anmerkung.
The author of Hebrews used the Septuagint for many of the quotations. The Septuagint, LXX, was the Greek translation that Jews and the early Church used. To disbelieve facts and history of the Septuagtint, then you would have to believe Rome has somehow created some 600 years of history, complete with forgeries in the New Testament and the Church Fathers - Ignatius and Polycarp.
The Epistle of Hebrews does not have a Hebraic, or Aramaic, original. It as written in Greek for a Greek speaking audience of Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Hebrews
Polycarp
27 Aug 08 at 8:12 pm
And you know what, if you think God cannot preserve His Word from inept Rome, then you should worry about your soul, for God said - we think, unless Rome changed that too - that nothing can removed us from His hand. It would be mighty difficult for God to hold to that promise if God can’t even keep His Word pure from a bunch of men and women.
Polycarp
27 Aug 08 at 8:33 pm
I love your articulation of the basic Christian doctrine. I would like to quote it on my blog sometime.
jesusblogger
29 Aug 08 at 7:21 pm
By all means, please use what you want.
Polycarp
29 Aug 08 at 7:33 pm